As the Father of the New Order, I take certain amount of responsibility for the actions of my Agents. This is why, when I talk to the miners who contact me, I am very clear in letting them know that they're not being bullied. In the interest of efficiency, Agents of the New Order can direct future complainers to this post and its sequel. Because today and tomorrow we're going to discuss the bullying, griefing, harassment, etc. issue and how it pertains to the New Order.
Let's begin by examining the perspective of the critics. My attention was drawn to a recent blog post written by a highsec carebear named rswfire. It's a manifesto entitled "The Cost of Bullying in Eve Online". Here's how it starts:
Yikes. You can read the entire post at the link above, but I'll get right to the heart of the matter. Basically, rswfire has a massive grudge against highsec philanthropist Psychotic Monk.
"Despite less than a dozen of us being active, our old foes declared war on us immediately. Break-a-Wish Foundation, Pendulum of Doom, Psychotic Monk's corporation, CODE (the alliance for the miner bumping douche-bag), and a few one-man corps all decced us within a thirty minute period."Most of rswfire's "anti-bullying" post actually consists of demands for CCP to nerf wardecs (again). The fact that wars still exist is apparently proof that wardec mechanics need another overhaul. Although I must say, rswfire's own employment history suggests that he's taken ample advantage of the current wardec mechanics:
Finally, rswfire calls for the creation of a pan-highsec coalition to rally the good guys together and fight the bad guys. (Friends, there already is one, and it's called the New Order.)
"There are a number of entities in highsec that work together to create conflict with the players in highsec, to make their lives a living hell, and no one stops to think about the consequences. Worse, no one has stopped to consider how inhumane these actions are.... I can sum these people up in my book with one word: assholes. Tell me I'm wrong."There's a certain irony here. At the same time the alleged evil bully Psychotic Monk was running a charity event to raise thousands of dollars for the Philippines disaster relief, the alleged anti-bully crusader rswfire was busy calling people "douche-bags" and "assholes" on his blog. But rswfire would say they deserved such harsh treatment, because they dared to do some spaceship combat in a spaceship combat sandbox.
Meanwhile, blogger The Nosy Gamer reflected on the subject in a more coherent, but still misguided, blog post. His questions were, in the context of the New Order and other highsec content providers, "Why harass high sec miners?" and "Why do people consider the harassment of high sec miners so entertaining?" The comments section is filled with people debating the psychological ills that motivate people to shoot at miners in highsec.
Interestingly, The Nosy Gamer claims to be a "low sec carebear", and doesn't seem to have any moral qualms with people shooting at him while he mines in lowsec. By contrast, he automatically equates shooting at miners in highsec with "harassment". At no point does he explain why he thinks it's harassment to bump or shoot at people in highsec, or why he thinks spaceship combat is morally sanitized the moment it crosses the 0.4 security threshold.
The Nosy Gamer isn't alone, though. Lots of miners agree that spaceship combat in highsec is inherently harassment, griefing, and/or bullying. Moreover, many of them are convinced that it's against the rules. Carebears constantly tell us that they're filing petitions against us. Plenty of them are lying, but not all. Recall that earlier this year, Agent Zak Fey reported on his pub crawl with the GMs at Fanfest. They say the New Order is the cause of more petitions than any other organization in EVE.
Is it true? Is the New Order a massive griefing operation, filled with bullies who "harass" miners instead of playing the game in a more ethical manner--by shooting miners in lowsec, for instance?
Well, no. Not really.
To be continued...
Caution: A real talk warning is in effect for Part 2. Reader discretion is advised.
What these people need to realize is that the actions of the New Order are no longer simply for entertainment. It has truly evolved into a cause that the citizens of the New Order feel is worth fighting for.
ReplyDeleteAh the classic "my credit card means my opinion deserves to be heard above others".
ReplyDeleteIt's not griefing and I wish these people would understand it. It is game mechanics for sure. It does not change the fact that the New Order is little more than a group of cowards who 'police' what amounts to one tenth of one percent of highsec. Even if you grow a collective spine, you are led by a lifeless moron who doesn't know how to grow an organization beyond what his plex buying capabilities will allow. It's almost pathetic as the posts claiming ganking is griefing.
ReplyDeleteThe root of this whole issue is every miners inability to roleplay.
ReplyDeleteThey log onto to a mmorpg, choose to play the part of "prey", then complain when a "hunter" comes along and shoots them. FFS, every game has bad guys, wake the fuck up and ROLEPLAY it, it's in the name-mmoRPG.
What would be the point in a spaceship game if there is nobody to come along and shoot you?
"What would be the point in a spaceship game if there is nobody to come along and shoot you?"
DeleteYou realize that there are spaceship games without the 'violencing' which are commercially successful, right? Many such "points" exist, an infinite number in fact. Even with violencing, it's not necessary for a spaceship shooting game to have 'hunters' and 'prey', there are no prey in LoL, or CS, etc (de facto there are badz, but no one plays the 'role' of prey). The point is that EVE is such a game, with violencing, and prey, and people play EVE voluntarily, so they've chosen those things.
Then why don't you just go and play one of those many spaceship games without 'violencing' instead of whining and trying to change the unique game that is EvE into one of those many other games.
DeleteIt's completely unfair. There are many theme park games for you carebears out there, but only one for us who prefer the challenge of a ruthless cutthroat spaceship game. Why are you trying to take that away from us?
"Why are you trying to take that away from us?"
DeleteWhy are you so stupid that you think I'm trying to? I'd tell you to reread my post, but it clearly wouldn't help.
Why the personal attack? Its completely unnecessary.
DeleteI think I can speak for a significant group of people when I say that its infuriating having valid game actions being petitioned at every turn. A large part of the draw of eve is being able to conduct actions that are strongly discouraged in real life and other games, and treat them as valid strategic actions. I just wish that this were presented to players in a more upfront manner instead of having the new order be the primary force of education in high security space.
"Why are you so stupid that you think I'm trying to? I'd tell you to reread my post, but it clearly wouldn't help."
DeleteHello Mr. Spaceship Tutor. I am the same Anonymous to whom you replied and I would like to sincerely apologize for my stupidity. Rereading your post most certainly did help!
You were absolutely right, and I am man enough to admit when I am wrong (for whatever it's worth coming from some random internet person).
Your point was just too subtle for my quick skimming through these comments.
All I can say in my defense is that you were very sneaky, making your comment start off as typical carebear propaganda, getting me all worked up, only to turn around and do a surprise twist at the end, by making a totally valid point in the very last sentence. Not fair, man! Not cool at all. :)
Nevertheless, my comment still stands as a response to all the carebears who do want to turn the unique EvE into a theme park, rather than just playing one of the many existing theme park games.
I am sorry for directing my reply at you though, you did not deserve it.
o7
^ Anon's post above me brought a tear to my eye and a smile to my face. :)
DeleteMaking a mistake and owning up to it isn't stupid, it's just human, and I also believe in quickly admitting and moving past such insignificant mistakes, which seems to be a rare thing in New Eden... And yes, I can be sneaky sometimes. Anyway, I framed my second reply as a mirror of your own in syntax and content, so if you've taken yours back, mine disappears as well. I will dedicate my next act of space violencing to you, good sir.
DeleteSweet jebus the rwsfire guy has 9 accounts and has spent $3,500 on Eve this year. I think he has a problem, but being bullied isn't it.
ReplyDeleteCame to the comments to say the same thing. Time to hang up the hat and go outside when you're spending crazy cash on a video game.
DeleteWhere are you getting this information about 9 accounts, $3500 expenditure, and family issues?
Delete(Just incase, I better head over to read his blog)
Ah, found it.
DeleteOf course it's about griefing, humiliation, exerting control, and tear harvesting. Managing trips to the bathroom? Comon. The "saving hisec" is just the RP angle. If it wasn't griefing, it wouldn't be so hilarious. I wouldn't expect James or anyone else to be breaking kayfabe on it anytime soon
ReplyDeleteHa! It's this guy again. :)
ReplyDeleteIt seems he has DRASTICALLY edited this "Cost of Bullying" post since he first wrote it.
It first came to my attention when someone posted a link to it on Psychotic Monk's Twitch.tv stream, and at that time the post was basically a ragequit: he pasted those same screenshots of his account history and blabbered on about how he was so butthurt that he would be unsubscribing.
His whole post at the time could essentially be paraphrased as: "See CCP? Look at how much money you'll be missing. Look!".
Today's version of the post is altogether different.
I see that he has totally wussed out like the pussy he is, and now his post can be summarized as: "Alright CCP, I will keep playing. I will let you off with a warning this time, but you seriously gotta make these wardec changes. Like, totally. Also, I'm still butthurt."
Typical carebear cowardice and complete inability to change or adapt in any way. He couldn't even follow through with his threats of unsubscribing.
He also displays that other common carebear trait, trying to "prove" that even though he is a loser in EvE, it's alright because he is a winner in real life. That's what the whole $3500 was, "see how much money I can afford to spend on a game, I must be rich and therefore better than the gankers".
Only an insecure and unbalanced person needs to do this kind of thing. A sane well-adjusted person who was losing in a computer game would just shrug it off: "meh, so I suck at this, it's only a game, now where did I put that beer".
For another example of him trying to alleviate his insecurities and prove how much better he is than everyone else, check out this other post where he is bragging how big his house is, listing every one of his rooms in detail, what kind of car he drives, and so on. I shit you not, see for yourself:
http://www.firesworn.com/blog/4/entry-21-why-we-failed/
This part was especially hilarious:
"It's a big house for one person, but it has my touch. There are teddy bears lining the stairs from top to bottom"
See what I mean? Total douchebag. And potentially a creepy and dangerous sexual predator...
It doesn't end there though. He has a history of resorting to real life harrassment over in-game actions (another carebear classic), like that one time he was so buttmad that he submitted false copyright infringement claims in order to temporarily take down Psychotic Monk's blog. In one of his posts he also refers to some other real life harrassment incident he was apparently involved in, and how he feels totally justified that he took real life actions, but I don't know the full details of that.
As you can see, a total nutjob.
Carebears like to say that EvE is a game that attracts more than its fair share of sociopaths. Except it's not the gankers and pirates, it's these supposedly "peaceful" carebears who tend to be the real sociopaths, as evidenced above...
P.S.
I cannot explain why I went reading through the other drivel on his site. Best excuse I can come up with is morbid curiosity... I was mesmerized and transfixed by the horrible mangled car crash that is his site.
"Carebears like to say that EvE is a game that attracts more than its fair share of sociopaths. Except it's not the gankers and pirates, it's these supposedly "peaceful" carebears who tend to be the real sociopaths, as evidenced above."
DeleteThat is totally my experience. I fleeted with Monk just the other night (on an alt) and we welped pretty badly. No one in fleet bitched about any of it. We went to Hek, got more ships, and fought them again. Sucked mostly as badly. We all laughed about it.
I've been called everything but white by carebears who lost a retriever in a spaceship shooting game. I help lead Monk to whelp a fleet in hilarious fail and do you know what he does? 2 hours later comes back to the channel from wherever awesome people go, and asks if we're still fighting with those guys and if there is anything he can do to help.
I'd take 1 Psychotic Monk over 10,000 carebear nutjobs.
The incident you refer to was a valid, real life complaint that needed to be addressed, for multiple reasons. There was never a second incident that I am aware of, so you probably misunderstood whatever you were reading.
DeleteI'm not trying to use money to imply I'm better than anyone else. I do not believe that. In fact, it's very counter to my philosophy on life in general. I wish people did not jump to conclusions so often. You could have contacted me and discussed this with me and perhaps walked away with a different understanding.
I've had one hell of an awesome life -- both the ups and downs -- and I did not start off with money. I worked hard to get where I am in life. I admit I made it a part of my argument, and perhaps I shouldn't have. But the overarching theme I was going for is that I have personally talked to tons of people who have quit, and each of those people represent a financial loss to CCP. I don't like seeing that happen, because just like you, I love Eve, and I want to see it remain a successful project.
I'm always open to changing my points of view when presented with a strong argument. In fact, two days ago, I read an interview about Psychotic Monk in which one thing he said really sparked my interest profoundly. I reached out to him about it and we discussed it like two adults. He effectively influenced my thinking on certain subjects, and I find myself still contemplating it.
@rswfire
Delete"The incident you refer to was a valid, real life complaint that needed to be addressed, for multiple reasons. There was never a second incident that I am aware of, so you probably misunderstood whatever you were reading."
Well of course people will misunderstand, when you are being vague as fuck about it. In my experience, when people talk about their actions in such an oblique manner it usually means that deep down they are ashamed of them and are hiding something. Speak plainly if you want to be understood, otherwise people will just draw their own conclusions.
"I'm not trying to use money to imply I'm better than anyone else. I do not believe that."
Then why brag about how much money you spend on Eve? Why bring it into the discussion at all? If your argument was valid it would stand on its own, without bringing money or house or cars into it.
"I wish people did not jump to conclusions so often. You could have contacted me and discussed this with me and perhaps walked away with a different understanding."
Now you're just being a hypocrite. How do you expect people to discuss things with you, when you are apparently so insecure that you don't allow any comments on your blog? All your articles for the past 6 months have zero comments, and when I click on them there is no link to leave a comment.
If you're really interested in people engaging you in discussion, you should open up your blog to anonymous comments to facilitate unimpeded discussion, just like James has done on his blog here. Otherwise people are going to discuss your actions on other blogs, whether you like it or not.
@rswfire
DeleteOh, and what's the deal with all those teddy bears, man? Is that how you lure kids inside your house?
I mean, you're an adult man, living alone in a big house, with teddy bears all over the place... I'm getting a creepy Michael Jackson vibe here.
If you're not in fact a pedophile, throw that shit out and grow up.
@Anonymous
DeleteI am not trying to be vague. In my experience, trying to defend a position only causes people who oppose you to attack you further. But I have stated very clearly my position on the legal issue that occurred here:
http://www.firesworn.com/topic/1046-real-world-pirating-truth-consequences/
As I said above, I brought up what I spent on Eve as a way of contrasting the consequences of losing people in the game. I was not thinking how others might view that. It didn't occur to me someone might think what the original poster said.
As for comments, I would love to make it easier for people to comment on our blog, but it's a little more complicated than that. We license the software we use and there is no anonymous feature. Everyone has to create an account. But we also added some special coding so that accounts are also character names. So technically, you can. It requires you register on our website, but it also requires you enter a limited Eve API so we can confirm your character name. There's no doubt it impedes discussion, but it's a by-product of our system and not wholly deliberate. Even if we didn't require you use a character name, the system we use requires accounts. Perhaps in the future, they will make a feature for the blog that allows this. If they do, I'll gladly implement it.
You're making too much out of the other thing. They're Boyd's Bears. Sort of like collectibles. Something my mother collected for years and I ended up with a bunch of them. They sit on the side of the stairs. To me, it just gives it some character rather than stairs with nothing on them. To me, this is just nitpicking. It doesn't say anything about me other than I like Boyd's Bears. I also have several Bonsai Trees. What does that say about me? (I like Bonsai Trees.)
DeleteHere's a photo. Why make such a big deal of something so meaningless?
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/180020_10150404779155641_2117241_n.jpg
"It requires you register on our website, but it also requires you enter a limited Eve API"
DeleteYou have got to be kidding me. :)
If you expect people to jump through these hoops just for the "privilege" of discussing things with you, then you are even more delusional than I thought.
I get that you're having issues with the software, but that's not my fault. You don't get to accuse people of avoiding discussion with you, unless you get better software that facilitates discussion. If you make people jump through hoops, they'll just follow the path of least resistance and move the discussion to a place that doesn't put such obstacles in their path, such as this blog.
Re the teddy bears: Alright, if you say so. It just sounds odd and a bit creepy. And no, bonsai trees do not give out the same creepy vibe like a grown man with teddy bears. It's just the way it is, man.
The reason we use character names and APIs is for our alliance community and for processing applications. The blog came later. I wouldn't jump through those hoops myself, so I agree. I was agreeing with you when I wrote that. If we have an alternative in the future, I'll use it. Until then, it is what it is.
DeleteAnd it's not odd, unless you're fixated on some very limited idea of what you consider normal, which only shows your own bias.
That's fine, you don't have to explain the reasons why your blog doesn't allow comments, it's your site, do whatever you want.
DeleteBut in the future stop making accusations like "you could have contacted me and discussed this with me first", because it comes off as more than a little hypocritical considering your blog comment situation.
Re the toys, it is actually odd. Odd is defined as something that is not usual, that is outside the norm, and a grown man obsessed with teddy bears certainly qualifies.
I was actually wondering when you were going to start deflecting by accusing me of projecting onto you. That seems to be the go to move in these situations. :)
But the truth is I don't have to project, because there is a widely publicized case of another grown man called Michael Jackson, who lived in what was essentially a kid's theme park full of toys, and we all know how that turned out.
I'm not saying you're the same, but excuse me for thinking it a little odd, given such a public precedent. And to be honest, the rest of your blog doesn't strike me as the writings of the most balanced and well adjusted person either, so...
Now I'm obsessed with them? I hardly ever even notice them! Lmfao!
DeleteTo my knowledge, I haven't accused you of projecting. Only being closed-minded (or single-minded). There's a big difference between the two. I can't even believe I'm debating this with "Anonymous." This is just getting ridiculous.
"Now I'm obsessed with them? I hardly ever even notice them!"
DeleteIt just means you're too far gone...
BTW, when are you going to explain why you haven't unsubscribed yet? In the original version of your post, before the massive edit, you said you were unsubscribing and you labeled the screenshots as your "former" accounts. Why did you chicken out?
My first version of the post was more reactionary. I don't always sit back and contemplate things like I should. I haven't honestly decided for sure what I am going to do. My accounts will expire at the end of the month and I'll decide by then. I updated the post after I had spent more time thinking about our situation.
DeleteI feel another AWOX coming on.
ReplyDeleteAnd this just in:
ReplyDelete"Come at us" he cries in his latest blog post:
http://www.firesworn.com/blog/4/entry-28-silly-wardecs-from-miner-bumping-bot-aspirants/
He berates people blowing up imaginary spaceships in an imaginary universe designed for blowing up imaginary spaceships.
Yet he is the one blackmailing CCP.
Moral scotoma?
Wow, this guy is a complete imbecile.
DeleteIf I understood him correctly, he is now refering to the New Order agents as bot-aspirants? Does he even understand what that term means? (I will spare you the Princess Bride qoute)
Bumping and ganking are among the least bot-like activities in Eve. They require your full attention and concentration. You cannot bump or gank while AFK, nor can you program a bot to do it for you, so how could you possibly label these activites as bot-aspirant?
It seems that he is just a feeble-minded buffoon who throws around "bot-aspirant" as some sort of generic insult, like an ethnic slur, without even a remote understanding of what the term actually means.
I wasn't using it as a generic insult. There just appears to be very little difference between a ganker and miner when you break down their actions:
Deletehttp://www.firesworn.com/topic/1216-ganker-vs-miner/
Sure. And there appears to be very little difference between you and an idiot when we break down your actions.
DeleteI guess that's why we see so many ganking bots in Eve, because the ganks are just as easily automated as mining bots. Oh, we don't? Nah, don't let facts bother you. It couldn't possibly be that you missed a few steps in the ganking process.
Mining asteroids lowers your security status just like ganking, right?
And most asteroids cannot be mined alone, you have to coordinate a larger fleet to do it successfully and profitably, just like ganking, right?
Why do I even bother...
I've been asking myself the same question, lol...
DeleteI have one of rswfires corpses in my hangar as a trophy. feelsgoodman.jpg
ReplyDeleteBottom Line: If CCP didnt want it in their game, they would remove the capacity for it.
ReplyDeleteCCP is no stranger to ruining and dismantling aspects that are NOT flawed, and replacing them with ones that are. Its not like the NO is telling you that you have to play eve ONLY wearing red power ranger underwear (tommy in green or white will always be better), or telling you you HAVE to eat grape jelly on your PB & J sandwich.
Be AT YOUR COMPUTER when youre logged on, or get blown up. That rule applies to EVERY PLAYER. Its NOT a hard concept. Buy a permit, tank your ship, pay attention to local, MAKE YOURSELF LESS OF A TARGET.
PLAY....THE....GAME
Unnecessary petitions, rude/childish insults strung together like popcorn garland on a christmas tree do NOT lend themselves as assets to the case of someone "who needs Help, Help we're being repressed" The verbal barrage uttered by someone who can replace a ship in 6 hours of mindless rock chewing doesnt seem appropriate when a low/null player loses a multi-billion isk ship in less time, but doesnt cry like his favorite toy has been taken away.
Every mining ship should come with a 6 pack of HTFU in the cargo hold.
Do bots make a sound as they pop in space?
ReplyDeleteDeath to all bots!
Bullying can result in reluctance to go to school and truancy, headaches and stomach pains, reduced appetite, shame, anxiety, irritability, aggression and depression. We must take action on the eradication of this issue in our community. Giving also additional protection to kids is not bad, monitoring their location would be very great here a safety application on the phone that parents can use to help and add safety to their children. Check this site out for information: http://safekidzone.com/#!/page_home.
ReplyDeleteSo many comments here I wouldn't know where to start. I'm not particularly interested in debating the issues in this format, but I do want to clear a few things up.
ReplyDelete- My employment history has nothing to do with dodging wardecs. All of the "Fire" corps were closed when we changed them to "Firesworn" equivalents. This was done to make them cohesive with our alliance name, and if you were interested in doing any real investigative journalism, I imagine the dates would clear that up for you.
- Also, the "Firesworn" corp that you see closed multiple times is the same corp, just one. And the only reason you see me jumping around from one to the other is because I needed to conduct corp business in them. Things like increasing the max number of members allowed in them when I worked on those skills. There's nothing at all shady about it. They're all in the same alliance, so no dodging wardecs.
- My "relationship" with Psychotic Monk is not black and white. I respect him more than most people realize. I have found him to be very wise and respectful when he's open to honest dialogue. I really do respect him. I think there are quite a few things we both agree on. As for our rivalry, that just makes for good entertainment.
- Griefing is not bullying. But it can lead to it. There's a line somewhere that shouldn't be crossed, and sometimes it is in this game. I don't oppose griefing, per se. I think it's a crappy way to spend your time, but it's your choice. I do oppose bullying. I can't tell you where one ends and the other begins. It's a very subjective topic. More than anything, I only want people to keep this in mind, because there's a fervor that takes place in a large community that can get out of control if there isn't somewhere there to bring them back to earth.
- I made some family issues public, largely for the people who were a part of our alliance, because they are people I respect and I felt that I needed to own up to some issues. The person who said I was afraid to confront my father is right. And it's true, it's sad. I don't particularly like conflict. I try to live my life in a productive and harmonious fashion. I didn't know what impact my father was having on me. But that post obviously did not go into great detail. And I'm not going to express anything further on the subject than I did other than to say, "try to read between the lines." I was criminally abused and while I thought I had long since moved on from it, I learned otherwise. That's my issue, and something I'm working on overcoming.
- I don't have an issue with CODE. You decced our alliance, for what reason I really do not know. We've never had any interaction with one another at all. I have never spoken to any of you. But it's fine. It's Eve. And writing a two-part post about me in which half the things you state as fact are just supposition and or wholly inaccurate only proves to me at least to take everything said on this site with a grain of salt.
- Merrizon, stop playing with my corpse. :)
- Have a good day and enjoy the holidays.
"And writing a two-part post about me in which half the things you state as fact are just supposition and or wholly inaccurate only proves to me at least to take everything said on this site with a grain of salt."
DeleteYou quoted zero things which you say were "state[d] as fact [which] are just supposition and or wholly inaccurate". Zero. Therefore, you've shown that we should take zero things on this site with a grain of salt, which is a far cry from everything. Typical of a highsec carebear to post about facts while referring to none.
Fact Tutor,
DeleteMost of my comments were directed at the comments on this post, not the post itself, but I doubt I touched on every topic, and I do not intend to do so. It would require a lot of parsing and it wouldn't be productive, as it would only result in replies like yours. You are not interested in the truth if it does not fit into what you already choose to believe about me. But, just to give you one example:
"Although I must say, rswfire's own employment history suggests that he's taken ample advantage of the current wardec mechanics:"
False. And explained above.
Actually, what James said is perfectly true, your employment history does indeed suggest exactly that. You claim that the facts of the matter are different, without sufficient proof, but even if we take your word for it on the actual reason, the situation that your employment history is suggestive of wardec avoidance remains the same. I'm sorry that you're unable to comprehend simple written English, or this would already be clear to you. I do agree with you, however, that replying to every topic wouldn't be productive, as if you can't understand simple written English in this instance, it's doubtful that you'd be able to in any other instance.
DeleteEach of those corps are part of an alliance, and all one needs to do is look at its alliance history to know that it was part of the alliance whenever I moved to it, thus moving from one to the other would not result in me avoiding a wardec. Also, each of my alts is the CEO of every corp in the alliance. Each of my alts were trained into different skillsets and used for different purposes. We don't avoid wars and our war history tab should make that pretty clear. That's all I have to say. I wanted to add some constructive feedback to this post, not start an argument with someone that derails it. So carry on.
DeleteThat's all very nice, but you haven't addressed the main topic I was responding to, so by default you've conceded the point and admitted you were wrong. That's something, at least. If you want to be constructive...try posting in the opposite fashion of your original post here, and that might work out well. Better yet, join the New Order and pay what you owe; fighting with the rulers of highsec is the opposite of being constructive, as I'm sure you can easily see.
Delete@rswfire
DeleteTo call what happens in Eve bullying is to cheapen and trivialize the real trauma of real life bullying that can leave lasting emotional damage on a young mind.
But I guess you're willing to trample anything in your path just to prove some twisted argument about how people shouldn't play some video game in a way you don't approve of.
Have you no shame?
You're a grown man for god's sake, crying about someone blowing up your ships in a video game. Do you also cry that you are bullied when someone takes your queen in chess?
Yeah, let's call anything we don't like "bullying" from now on. I don't like your blog, therefore it's bullying me. Take it down immediately, or you're a bully! See how that works?
@Anonymous
DeleteI feel your comments are very important, because they go to the heart of the issue of this post and there is a misconception about my own beliefs. I wholeheartedly agree with you that calling the majority of what happens in Eve bullying cheapens and trivializes the trauma that happens in real life, but that is not what I am doing. First, cyber bullying is just as serious. It also can have lasting emotional damage. Second, I don't consider most activities that happen in Eve to be bullying of any kind, and I don't disapprove of the way you play Eve to the point I believe you should not be able to do it. I honestly don't understand why anyone believes this. I've never gotten upset over someone blowing up my ship. I expect it. I wouldn't go out looking for a fight with a war target if that wasn't a likely outcome. I've lost plenty of ships playing this game. It's really not a big deal. If it were that black and white, we wouldn't have an issue, you wouldn't know a thing about me...but people take it much further than that, and I suspect anyone who looks at what happens rationally can see it. That's the extent of my argument "against" anything that happens in Eve. This community (and I do not mean the NO community, I am speaking more broadly) have taken "HTFU" to mean they can say or do anything to someone else and it's somehow okay, but not everything that happens is. Up until a week ago, I have never said anything about NO. And the only thing I have said is essentially "we're at war." So you can't attach my opinions on certain subjects to the NO by default.
@Fact Tutor -- You were wrong from your first post. And you concluded just how biased you are in your last. Enough said.
@rswfire
DeleteThe word "bullying" is right in the title of your blog post, yet you now seem to be furiously backpedaling and saying you're not trying to trivialize the term? You seem to undermine your credibility with every comment (not that you had much credibility to begin with, to be perfectly honest).
Also, your quip about cyberbullying is invalid, because I include cyberbullying in the general umbrella of bullying, and what happens in Eve is just not cyberbullying by any accepted definitions.
An essential part of bullying (and cyberbullying) is the REAL LIFE component, which is simply absent from Eve. If anyone crosses the RL line with you in Eve just report them to CCP and they'll get the banhammer to the face. But things that happen in-game cannot be called (cyber) bullying by any stretch of the imagination.
If you think they can, you just don't know what you're talking about (or you are deliberately trivializing the term, which I would personally find despicable).
@Anonymous
DeleteIn my opinion, this is a very typical reaction from players like you. There is no reasoning with you. You're not listening to me. You're not considering what I'm saying. In other words, we're not actually having a discussion at all, because there is no way of reaching a mutual understanding, even if that mutual understanding results in having a difference of opinion. All you are doing is attacking me. (And you called me a pedophile twice, so that kind of invalidates a large part of your argument, don't you think?)
@rswfire
DeleteI am really trying to listen to you, but you are obfuscating at every step and not making your arguments easy to follow.
So let's cut through the bullshit and talk specifics:
What type of behavior in Eve do you consider cyber bullying, that is not also a bannable offence by CCP?
Concrete examples, please.
Keep in mind though that for something to be called cyber bullying it has to have a real life component to it (according to mainstream accepted definitions of cyber bullying, you can't just redefine words).
Random insults between completely anonymous in-game characters don't necessarily qualify as cyber bullying, and in-game actions like blowing up ships, wardeccing, ganking, scamming, ransoming definitely do not qualify.
But go ahead, list specific scenarios.
"@Fact Tutor -- You were wrong from your first post. And you concluded just how biased you are in your last. Enough said."
DeleteYou keep saying "enough said", but you keep posting again, without making any kind of real argument based on facts. Remember facts, those things you claimed to find important, but continue to shy away from using? Yes, we noticed that. As I said before, you've stopped using facts or making real arguments, so you've conceded the argument to me.
"In my opinion, this is a very typical reaction from players like you. There is no reasoning with you. You're not listening to me. You're not considering what I'm saying."
So basically, you're having an experience over and over, which proves to you that it's not you, but the rest of the world, that has a problem. People would be willing to consider what you were saying, if you argued from facts, and with logic. You speak mainly about your feelings, and when you do speak about others, it is with useless and vague generality. Sorry, but if we're talking about EVE online, your last few posts don't merit consideration. At this point this looks like an intentional strategy on your part to avoid losing arguments: stop saying anything real, then complain that no one is listening to you, and retreat as a self-martyred victim. The only solution is for you to realize, on your own, that the pain and negative effects of making yourself into a perpetually trampled victim are actually worse than the pain and negative effects of simply admitting your were wrong could ever be. You came here, ostensibly to set the record straight, but in reality to play your part as the professional victim. We knew it, consciously, and you knew it as well, subconsciously. Mission accomplished.
These actions by themselves are not bullying (and I use that word as a synonym for cyber-bullying, sorry if that offends you):
Delete- Warfare
- Ganking
- Scamming
- Ransoming
- Pirating
- Awoxing
- Bumping
And probably many other things I'm not thinking about at the moment. The argument I'm trying to make is not that these things constitute bullying, but that they can lead to it.
You said "random insults don't *necessarily* qualify" which leaves room, even for you, that they can. And this is pretty much the heart of my issue. Well, I would say there are two things.
1. Insults: In my experience, the "griefer wardeccers" will insult you in local for hours upon hours, day after day...and they can get very personal about it. They make very personal attacks against you. This is something I think is wrong. I consider it bullying. No one wants to play a game where they are constantly harassed and insulted by random people (an in-game character is controlled by a person, and the text they write isn't a character at all.)
2. Warfare: Most wardecs are no big deal to me, but when they are used for the sole purpose of harassing others, that is when I have an issue...and that's what sparked my outrage recently. We have had wars last for months and months, only to take a break, come back, and immediately have those same people wardec us for no other reason than they can and they wanted to harass us (refer to #1.)
I have listened to many people who eventually left Eve because they found the game so stressful. Games are supposed to be fun. It's not fun to spend your time being insulted by others -- to have them attack you in local, PM you repeatedly until you block them, send mails, etc. etc.
There is a thread right now in C&P where one merc corp has kept another at war for more than half a year, all because they felt the other corp underestimated them (ego) and they wanted to prove a point. They post their exploits there and that's taking things a bit far.
If there's any irony in this, it's that I would expect NO to agree on some level, because you often complain about "carebears" who use foul language and repeatedly attack you. And I've read the transcripts, and some of them really do go way too far.
I don't see this as being a one-sided issue. It's not an "us vs. you" scenario. It's more of a systemic issue where too many people lose the "gf" and instead choose to attack you. And there's no winning with them. If you don't fight them, they'll attack you for that. If you do fight them and lose, they'll attack you for that. It's just being vicious without any regard for the other person.
Go ahead, shoot my ship, pod me...but don't PM me two seconds later to try to collect "tears" and "lulz." That's not a game people want to play -- and asking for a little respect is not asking for a theme park. No one wants to listen to people call them fags, losers, whatever, because some random person wardecs you and wants to treat you like crap.
"1. Insults"
DeleteBlocklist.
"2. Warfare"
Warfare is in both your "not-bullying" and "yes-bullying" list. Which is it? The difference seems to lie in whether it goes on for more than a week or two. A real war goes on until you negotiate a surrender or cease to exist, a war that's just for fun isn't a war at all, it's just a military exercise. Therefore, you think wardecs, nullsec warfare, etc, the most famous and notable of which are all long-lasting feuds, are bullying, with real life impacts. You are exactly the kind of person who should never play EVE, and who is the enemy of all real EVE players, as you have declared yourself to be against all real or significant conflict. Those are the facts.
You may be right. I and many others should not be playing Eve according to your mindset. We should take our money somewhere else and leave you to enjoy your game the way you want to play it. Or... There could be a middle ground somewhere (in highsec) that doesn't create a theme park but makes the game playable for both of us.
DeleteNo, there's no middle ground to be found with someone who believes that any significant conflict, in a game, constitutes bullying, and has still chosen to play a game renowned for its hardcore and villainous gameplay. Please, take your money somewhere else, and your whines with it.
DeleteAlright, so after eliciting concrete examples of what rswfire considers "cyber bullying", we are faced with one inescapable conclusion:
DeleteWhat it all really boils down to is that rswfire is a spoiled entitled asshole who thinks that him having to periodically alter his Eve gameplay in response to other players is just as bad as some kid getting beat up at school every day.
There you have it gentlemen, the disgusting mind of a true carebear.
The diagnosis is quite serious, and I can only prescribe a strict and vigorous regimen of wardec therapy, to be continued until his condition improves.
This would make zero difference given that's exactly what I've experienced for the past year. And claiming I believe what happens in Eve is as bad as a kid being bullied in school is insulting as hell. I was once that kid in school. And I'm one of those people who participated in the "It Gets Better" campaign. You can wardec me all you want, but don't accuse me of not caring about other people.
Delete"And claiming I believe what happens in Eve is as bad as a kid being bullied in school is insulting as hell."
Delete1) You said that bullying and cyber-bullying are synonymous (which I wholeheartedly agree with, they are both equally serious)
2) You claim that prolonged wardecs (what happens in Eve) are cyber-bullying (i.e. bullying)
3) Therefore, by logically combining these 2 statements, you are in fact claiming that "what happens in Eve is as bad as a kid being bullied in school". QED.
Now that your position has been logically shown to lead to a ridiculous conclusion (reductio ad absurdum, look it up), would you care to change your original position on bullying in Eve?
Naaah, who am I kidding... :) You're a carebear, you'll just find something else to whine about.
Why am I carebear? Because I care about other people's feelings? Because, honestly, that's what this really comes down to for me. I don't like to see people hurt. And while you can argue that they should be able to separate the actions that happen in Eve from real life, I don't think it's that black and white for a lot of people. And again, I'm not talking about blowing up ships. I'm talking about the way people interact with each other. And no, I won't find something else to whine about. I've already stated that I would reconsider my use of that word...but the actions I spoke of are still what concern me. Why don't they concern you? Doesn't it bother you at all when you hurt someone's feelings, video game or not? I think it's easy to compartmentalize it when you don't know the person -- but what if it is your friend, do you feel any differently? I've engaged in behavior in this game that I wouldn't toward a friend, and I can see the difference in the way I feel about it, but I'm not sure that makes it right.
DeleteNope, I was wrong. You didn't find a new thing to whine about, you're still whining about the same thing.
DeleteCarry on.
At least I'm consistent! xD
Delete"Why am I carebear?"
DeleteThis has already been said many times. You are a carebear because you believe that any meaningful conflict, in a video game, constitutes bullying in the real world. This makes you not only a carebear, but an extremely afflicted carebear, the worst of the worst.
"Why don't they concern you? Doesn't it bother you at all when you hurt someone's feelings, video game or not?"
If I, playing within the rules of the game, hurt someone else's feelings in real life, solely by my legal actions in the game, then they're not emotionally mature enough to play that game. This is obvious. If I drive them out of a game they shouldn't be playing anyway, I did them a favor. My concern for them is thus a positive concern, I'm glad I did them a favor. Assuming that my actions don't concern me is a baseless assumption, and making it makes you look irrational; which you clearly are, so I suppose that's a good thing as well.
Except I don't believe that at all. There are many meaningful conflicts in Eve. There are many petty ones also, that are no less valid than the meaningful ones in the context of playing Eve. Conflict isn't my issue. I have said this several times, in several different ways. These actions by themselves are fine. It's the other actions that surround them that can be taken too far. I'm talking about the human component, and you're talking about game mechanics. There is not a 1:1 correlation there. An MMO is made up of human players. Podding someone is not murder. It's not even relevant. It's what happens next, and before...the human interactions that take place. It's entirely possible I'm not expressing this well, which could be leading to a misunderstanding. I tried my best, but I'm obviously not doing a very good job at it. The only other way I can think to try to explain it is you don't see these problems in RvB, Test vs Goons, Pirates vs. FW Players. I think it could be summed up as, "They don't make it personal." You guys often do. So do many of the miners you gank. And so am I, but more as an advocate for others.
DeleteLol.
Delete"Test vs Goons, Pirates vs. FW Players. I think it could be summed up as, "They don't make it personal.""
...
You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? This isn't a problem of you not expressing yourself well, this is a problem of you expressing your rampant confusion and ignorance, well enough for everyone to see them clearly.
"Except I don't believe that at all."
You clearly do, sorry. The meaningful conflicts you say you're not against, are ones that you obviously have no idea what they're really like. Ignorance is bliss, in your case at least.
@rswfire
DeleteNow wait a minute...
First you claimed you had a problem with the prolonged wardecs. Now you seem to claim that game mechanics are fine, and your problem is with in game chat.
So which is it?
If you consider wardecs bullying, then you're just an idiot and that's all there is to it.
If you consider in game chat/mail to be a problem just add the guy to your blocklist and you won't hear a single word from them. There, bully gone. All better now?
"Insults: In my experience, the "griefer wardeccers" will insult you in local for hours upon hours, day after day...and they can get very personal about it. They make very personal attacks against you. This is something I think is wrong. I consider it bullying."
ReplyDeleteUm... you can just block them? I assure you, the kids who are suffering real bullying can only wish they could block it so easily.
By labeling random insults from anonymous characters in an online game as "bullying", you are seriously cheapening the word. You seem to like to wave the "bullying" card to lend weight to what you think is proper behavior, which is a real asshole move.
What you described above is not bullying (cyber or otherwise), and is not unique to Eve either. Go to Xbox Live sometime and hear the things bored teenagers will scream in your ear, you'll soon be running back to Eve to appreciate the general maturity level of Eve players.
Nobody is seriously labeling the anonymous teenagers sperging on Xbox Live as cyber bullying, so why should Eve be treated differently?
Again, you are forgetting the real life component of cyber bullying. When you mention cyber bullying, the average person immediately thinks of Facebook, where accounts are usually tied to real life identities, and real life circles of friends, the school where you go to, etc. This is not an accident. Cyber bullying really does require real life harassment, like posting embarrassing pictures where your real life friends will see them, or making harassing comments in facebook walls where you friends can read them (and you can't prevent your friends and family from reading them), and thus you end up feeling helpless, embarrassed, or worse.
But you're not helpless in Eve. Nobody knows who you are, so they can't touch you in real life. If some idiot annoys you, just block them. If their insults cross the line, report them to CCP and get them banned.
What else do you want CCP to do? Your request is not to eliminate cyber bullying (which is already a bannable offence), your request is to soften Eve by using "cyber bullying" as a false flag to lend weight to your cause. You're so full of shit, it's not even funny. (oh, wait, is calling you "full of shit" cyber bullying?)
"Warfare: Most wardecs are no big deal to me, but when they are used for the sole purpose of harassing others, that is when I have an issue"
Seriously? Wardecs are cyber bullying now? Again you are missing the fact that it has no real life component, and you can easily avoid it. It's just a game, for fuck's sake.
You can just fight back, or drop corp, or move to some other region, or hire mercenaries, or create an alt, or any other way you can think of to adapt. It's a fucking in-game character, it's not you. In the end, you can just log off and *poof*, the whole thing is gone.
Do you think kids who are really bullied can just log off? Are you really so spoiled that you think someone making you adapt your strategy in an online game is tantamount to getting beat up every day in school, or being mercilessly cyber bullied on Facebook with your real identity in front of your real life school friends with no way to escape it?
"I have listened to many people who eventually left Eve because they found the game so stressful."
Sure, and I have listened to many people who loved the fact that Eve is so ruthless. In fact, as you can see there are whole blogs dedicated to celebrating that fact. You're posting comments on one right now.
So whose anecdotal evidence wins?
@Anonymous
DeleteI will need to spend some time thinking about what you said, but I agree with the sentiment of your message. At the very least, perhaps I should substitute bullying with a different word. It seems bullying is something you give stronger (more personal) weight to than I do.
According to Google, a bully is "a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker" and bullying is to "use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants." These don't seem to require a real life component.
Both of these definitions, putting the word they came from aside, can easily apply to Eve. And of course Eve is a competitive game. It's what attracts many of us to it. I just don't think it should be so competitive that it forces people out of it. I don't see that as a win for Eve.
I'm attracted to games that have some measure of realism to me. And I've always felt Eve had that. If we were a space dwelling species today, we would have "high sec" in our solar system, for example. It would be largely safe and peaceful, and become progressively lawless (or controlled through another's set of laws) the further out you were.
I've always thought this was a good thing, because it makes room for different play styles. It allows different types of players to enjoy this game. Ideally, you'd think it would make everyone happy...but this is a debate that has gone on forever.
"These don't seem to require a real life component."
DeleteIn the dictionary, references to "a person" refer to a real person, in real life, not to imaginary people in imaginary worlds we call fiction. Interactions in fiction could include bullying, but that's fictional bullying, not real bullying. If you're playing EVE, by the rules, your strength, power, harm, and intimidation, are all in that fictional world. If you seriously can't separate fiction from reality, then you clearly aren't mentally advanced enough to play MMORPG's; farmville is that way. Weren't you leaving ages ago? Got lost?
@rswfire
Delete"According to Google, a bully is "a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker" and bullying is to "use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants." These don't seem to require a real life component."
The real life component is implicit, because these are definitions of "bullying" and refer to actual physical intimidation and violence. You cannot "physically" intimidate virtual online characters. Also, they clearly use the word "person", which can reasonably be taken to mean a real life person.
Here is an actual definition of cyber bullying:
"Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor.
See how it again specifically refers to an actual real life person (child, minor), and not anonymous online personas (where you can just opt out by logging out). Oh, and note how it only applies to minors, which you are definitely not. :)
Cyber bullying was a fairly hot issue a little over a year ago as you may recall and I recall one of the posters saying that while one definition of it was strictly for children, that was not the case for other health organizations or countries like Canada. And there's no reason why it should be. But like I said, I'm willing to re-examine my use of the word. But I don't buy the argument of people vs. characters. People hide behind that as an excuse, imo.
Delete"But I don't buy the argument of people vs. characters. "
DeleteDo you believe that if I podded you, it would constitute real-life murder? Yes or no?
@rswfire
DeleteYou claim that people don't listen to you, yet you persistently refuse to listen to sound and logical arguments, like for example the fact that you cannot simply "log out" from a real life situation without a major disruption to your life, whereas you can log out of an online persona in two mouse clicks, therefore the bullying situations are not comparable.
What makes bullying bullying is that you cannot escape the influence and intimidation of the bully, at least not without considerable difficulty.
I'm not even talking about game mechanics here, I am referring to conversations and interactions between real life people vs between anonymous online characters.
You counter-argument? "I don't buy the argument of people vs characters". Yeah, that's some Socratic mastery right there. You sure showed that real people are identical to virtual online characters in every conceivable way, bravo.
I can only hope that deep down on some level you realize how wrong you are, and your "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" performance here is just an act (an online persona?) to try to save face.
If you really can't see the difference between a person and anonymous online character, between a game and real life, and how the interactions and the difficulty of "opting out" might be different, then there is simply no reasoning with that level of irrationality. May god have mercy on your soul.
"""But I don't buy the argument of people vs. characters. "
DeleteDo you believe that if I podded you, it would constitute real-life murder? Yes or no?"
Podding someone is not murder. It's not even relevant. It's what happens next, and before...the human interactions that take place....I'm talking about the human component, and you're talking about game mechanics."
The human interactions that take place before and after are what's not relevant. There are gameplay interactions, and there is chatting. We've already dealt with the chatting aspect: blocklist. All that's left is gameplay mechanics. If you're not talking about gameplay interactions, and you're just talking about namecalling, then the answer is one word: blocklist. Problem solved. It really is that simple.
The irony here is that you complain about something which could be solved by simply using the 'ignore' feature, and your solution for dealing with the fact that your argument is completely defeated by this simple action is to...wait for it...ignore that argument. Hilarious.
@rswfire
DeleteNow wait a minute...
First you claimed you had a problem with the prolonged wardecs. Now you seem to claim that game mechanics are fine, and your problem is with in game chat.
So which is it?
If you consider wardecs bullying, then you're just an idiot and that's all there is to it.
If you consider in game chat/mail to be a problem just add the guy to your blocklist and you won't hear a single word from them. There, bully gone. All better now?
^ Ignore the above comment, it got attached to the wrong sub-thread...
Delete